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garven-dreis
2016-02-10, 06:58 PM
a topic all wireless transport vendors are talking about.
here is what Alcatel-Lucent (now NOKIA) presented yesterday in a public webinr


https://www.brighttalk.com/webcast/6985/189733?utm_campaign=user_webcast_register&utm_medium=email&utm_source=brighttalk-transact&utm_content=title

simog72
2016-02-16, 06:32 PM
it seems that also ALU is working on a e-Band + STD Freq aggregated solution.(or dual std-frequency low-high)

i dont believe in such solution because it (IMHO) is too "expensive":1x IDU,2xODU (probably 1xODU Full Outdoor) and two antennas.
i dont think that mobile operator will accept such model (as per LOS MIMO 4x4: 4xODU , 4xantennas)
But what if it could be possible to have a single antennas-dual feeder? such innovation could be capable to drive that solution toward a 1+1 integrated more sustainable model?

simog72
2016-03-11, 07:03 PM
we have also Huawei here with superdual band

http://www.huawei.com/en/news/2016/3/1st-Super-Dual-Band-microwave-field-trial

smartyouth92
2016-03-13, 01:13 AM
What's about attenuation on these Higher frequencies which would use it as an aggregated Band ?

simog72
2016-03-13, 05:09 AM
Traffic with high QoS has Always high availibilty
The link benefit for 99-99.9% of time of an high aggregated throughut : Eband+StdFreq bandwidth available (let's say 2.5Gbps+600mbps)

during the "down" of Eband still the hig QoS traffic can be transported on standard freqeuncy carrier


38786
i suggest you smartyouth92 to read
E******* Technology Review – Microwave backhaul gets a boost with multiband


a smart solution anyway should be comply to 3 points IMHO :
- Aggregation Must be at L1 level (between Eband and Std Frequency carriers)
- During the Eband "down" , the system must assure hitless/loosless switch to E-BAND carrier ->standard frequency carrier
- Better to use a single antenna (in case it exists) to reduce cost of installation and overall cost of the system

i m not sure that huawei solution (proposed to Cosmote), at the moment, does compliant to this 3 statements
as other competitors solution i heard about

the solution can be provided with different twins-carrier frequency according different scenario-hop-length


- 18GHz-42GHz (Carrier1) + Eband (Carrier 2)
- 18GHz-42GHz (Carrier1) + 6-15Ghz(Carrier 2)
and maybe also
- Eband (Carrier 1) + 6-13GHz (Carrier 2)

smartyouth92
2016-03-13, 09:11 PM
Traffic with high QoS has Always high availibilty
The link benefit for 99-99.9% of time of an high aggregated throughut : Eband+StdFreq bandwidth available (let's say 2.5Gbps+600mbps)

during the "down" of Eband still the hig QoS traffic can be transported on standard freqeuncy carrier


38786
i suggest you smartyouth92 to read
E******* Technology Review – Microwave backhaul gets a boost with multiband


a smart solution anyway should be comply to 3 points IMHO :
- Aggregation Must be at L1 level (between Eband and Std Frequency carriers)
- During the Eband "down" , the system must assure hitless/loosless switch to E-BAND carrier ->standard frequency carrier
- Better to use a single antenna (in case it exists) to reduce cost of installation and overall cost of the system

i m not sure that huawei solution (proposed to Cosmote), at the moment, does compliant to this 3 statements
as other competitors solution i heard about

the solution can be provided with different twins-carrier frequency according different scenario-hop-length


- 18GHz-42GHz (Carrier1) + Eband (Carrier 2)
- 18GHz-42GHz (Carrier1) + 6-15Ghz(Carrier 2)
and maybe also
- Eband (Carrier 1) + 6-13GHz (Carrier 2)

Thanks for explanation ,I will read the E**** articles for better realization

ankarb
2016-03-16, 10:12 PM
Traffic with high QoS has Always high availibilty
The link benefit for 99-99.9% of time of an high aggregated throughut : Eband+StdFreq bandwidth available (let's say 2.5Gbps+600mbps)

during the "down" of Eband still the hig QoS traffic can be transported on standard freqeuncy carrier


38786
i suggest you smartyouth92 to read
E******* Technology Review – Microwave backhaul gets a boost with multiband


a smart solution anyway should be comply to 3 points IMHO :
- Aggregation Must be at L1 level (between Eband and Std Frequency carriers)
- During the Eband "down" , the system must assure hitless/loosless switch to E-BAND carrier ->standard frequency carrier
- Better to use a single antenna (in case it exists) to reduce cost of installation and overall cost of the system

i m not sure that huawei solution (proposed to Cosmote), at the moment, does compliant to this 3 statements
as other competitors solution i heard about

the solution can be provided with different twins-carrier frequency according different scenario-hop-length


- 18GHz-42GHz (Carrier1) + Eband (Carrier 2)
- 18GHz-42GHz (Carrier1) + 6-15Ghz(Carrier 2)
and maybe also
- Eband (Carrier 1) + 6-13GHz (Carrier 2)

If I understand well, we talk about a full outdoor product supporting simultaneously Eband frequency and microwave (e.g. 18GHz) frequency? Do you have data sheet for such products?

simog72
2016-03-16, 11:13 PM
the system today showed applicability for trials/demos as a split Mount hardware (Huawei, ERCS, SIAE) :
scenario 1) eband + std frequency --->tipically IDU+FO+ODU
scenario 2) std frequency1 + std frequency2---->tipically IDU+ODU+ODU

It is not so clear who is able to LAG in L1 each carrier today.

Anyway the model can be replicated in a smarter(& cheaper) way using Full outdoors .

Expecially the MW providers with a Fulloudoor multicarrier single ODU in portfolio (Ceragon IP20C, SIAE ALFOplus2 and Roadmap ERICSSN ML 6354)
are probably studing on a super integrated solution.( single ODU - dual frequency)
I can also immagine that a MW Providers who has internal production of RF parts/transceivers has big advantage today on that technology.

It is quite sure that for std+Eband (scenario 1) , the split Mount is the only possible way to implement easly today.


Maybe a smart antenna (dual feeder, single parabolic) is the step very needed to introduce that systems into a real applicability field (for Mobile ops).
what do u think Akrab?(asap i will ask to some antenna expert eg. Kathrein/FAINI, RFS, ANDW etc)

for datasheet :i dont think is important to have datasheet to undestand the system perfromance/behaviours
Due to the fact that such systems are a "composition" of two existing RF chains, we can infer the performance on other available datasheets basis.

what u are intresting to know about the performance? (what u are searching in a that datasheet)
being now only demo/trial time , it is not the right time of datasheet! :D

ankarb
2016-03-31, 09:13 PM
See attached for information about the Huawei Super Dual band solution.

simog72
2016-04-01, 12:37 AM
as you can see Huawei is limiting the vision to EBAND + STD-freq.
ERICSS ON is going deeply proposing also a different frequencies range coupling/LAGing


Huawei solution seems also to suggest to route high priority service only in std freqs path (as it's reported in the second picture)

A smarter approach is a dinamic allocations of services but in this case you need to plan a hitless re-routing
it doesn seems huawei is able to offer hitless path change

thx for sharing

freeinfo123
2016-06-29, 06:25 PM
E-band product provided by huawei si better ,at least 4096QAM gives a better speed

simog72
2016-08-23, 07:24 PM
unfortunatly 4096QAM from Huawei is only usable with a specific modem card , specific ODU and specific bands and no XPIC

so with too much restrictions (IMHO)

Freeinfo123 do you have additonal info on huawei solution please share

RTN380H eband is nice because offers a 10G connectivity

then
using specific modem card:ISV3
specifi traffic port card : EM6D
and specific 2U high IDU: RTN950A (with specific type of controller)
you can build up a Superdualband


but..seems an expensive and complex setup
IMHO they should extend the feature to 905 pizza box IDU

comments?

sonproo
2016-09-02, 03:01 PM
What's about attenuation on these Higher frequencies which would use it as an aggregated Band ?

omid373
2016-12-20, 02:10 AM
Hi Sonproo,
As you pointed , attenuation on eband is much higher than traditional band which will be integrated in Huawei Super Dual band.In fact maximum length of link used with Eband is about 1.5km keeping link at 32Q.
But key concept on Super Dual Band is mechanism of aggregation between traditional link and Eband. High priority data will be carried by traditional when high BER or some other issue detected on eband.but totally SDB is not good solution for links longer than 2km. Because as an example in our network which is mostly based on MW , we need all planned capacity of the link. So in case of any limitation on SDB we face congestion and complains by subscribers.
E******* also has solution named multi band aggregation using MMU3+traditional ODU aggregated with eband based on same concept.
Finally , In case of having enough spectrum , 112Mhz channels can be good solution which is upcoming in new 2017 products.for example on Huawei XMC3 it is supported in 32g and other bands are in their roadmap.
Br.
Omid


Sent from my HUAWEI G750-U10 using Tapatalk

simog72
2017-03-21, 12:50 AM
on that topic ...finally some vendor starting offer this new kind of antenna

http://www.mtiwe.com/?CategoryID=316&ArticleID=185&dbsAuthToken=

Dannyb
2017-03-21, 06:13 PM
Hello,
I am Danny from Siklu and would like let you know that our customers are leveraging our related solution since 2014.
We have a solution page with overview and an application note.
https://www.siklu.com/portfolio-posts/siklu-overbuild/
The linkedIn post contains real customer testimonial https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/siklu-overbuild-multi-gigabit-wireless-beyond-city-limits-bensimhon
And, I can tell you that ~2 weeks ago another customer deployed it for 22Km.

Thanks,
Danny

simog72
2017-03-21, 07:19 PM
Hi Denny welcome in the forum
as I know the Siklu solution is not exactly what we are describing here

Siklu is using two different Radio EBand + Sub6 radio to build up a mixed link (unlicenced - in most of countries)

Here we talk about of an antenna technology able to merge a 10Gbps Eband radio PLUS a Standard freq frequency radio (typically 13 , 15, 23 ,18,32GHz depending on scenario)using a single antenna(HYBRID LINK)..
but also two different standard frequencies radio (15-18 , 18-32GHz depending on scenario) , all licenced. (DUAL BAND)
Typically suppliers use Eband in an HP performance (18-20dBm Ptx) and Lagged @ L1

E*******,HUAWEI, SIAE Microelettronica and NEC talked about this innovative approach @ MWC17(but also before) with different names : hybrid LAG, Super dual band etc etcoffered in split mount but also in a full outdoor architecture.
In few cases some suppliers described also a solution in pure outdoor : single full outdoor (dual carrier F1 + F2) building-up a single ODU dual frequency terminal with one single antenna

in the most of case we are talking about of an antenna technology (probably a feeder technology) and not just a device technology.

Siklu has a pure millimetre portofolio so I suppose could be little more difficult to offer an "optimized solution" like hybrid lag (ex:15 -32GHz or 32 -80GHz)
but you are here in the community now so u can provide a better view on that (if u please)


thanks for ur post

Dannyb
2017-03-21, 11:06 PM
Hi Simon.

Thanks for your welcoming message.
2 points I need to highlight:
> The original Siklu solution is lower frequency (backup) solution band agnostic. Our customers are using it with both 5GHz (in some cases)40300 and also with licensed radios at 17/18/23GHz as well.
> Several months before MWC, we delivered a solution with one antenna (80GHz + 5GHz) to specific customers

The solution with 80GHz+18GHz or 80GHz+23GHz antenna came from MTI Wireless Edge (an antenna mnfg) and yes, other vendors showcased it in MWC, but I am not aware of any operational, with a paying end user, implementation to date.

As for high power, L1 solution, Siklu got the EH-5500FD which offers unmatched link budget for single 80GHz radio who delivers 5Gbps full duplex. We do have customers who use it for 10Km and even more with a lower frequency band radio as backup.
The EH-5500FD with its 10G SFP+ port, offers also <10nSec delay

Kind Regards.
Danny

simog72
2017-03-21, 11:42 PM
thanks for clarifying,
Can you elaborate on your "with licensed radios at 17/18/23GHz as well"? was this with single antenna? I didn't know siklu had licenced frequency bands, this could be a strong differentiator! Although I guess the picture is not related to this solution, as we see always dual antennas.

Please remember to avoid making "marketing claims" in the forum such as "unmatched link budget" but focusing on technical aspects.
if you want to say what's is the PTX for ETH5500, we can evaluate the "unmatching" performances.

Clearly to deliver 5Gbps capacity you need a 10Gbps port. do you plan to extend to 10Gbps also in the radio as referred in my previous post?
e.g. RTN380H; ALFOplus80HDX; ML6352 just for references.


The solution with 5GHz reported here could be interesting but off topic for this thread. you may open a new thread on this.

Dannyb
2017-03-22, 12:09 AM
Hi Simon,

Siklu is not manufacturing lower frequencies radios, nor antennas. Yes, the solutions I was referring to are "capacity boost" related: those customers usually had in service 17/18/23GHz radios delivering 50-300Mbps at +8Km ranges. The Siklu overbuild solution enabled them to boost the capacity by adding a separate radio with a separate antenna. The integrated L2 switch that comes with any Siklu radio, took care of the networking required to assemble the Overbuild solution with no need for any change at the old lower frequency radio.

EH-5500FD Tx power: up to 18dBm. System gain (without antennas) 71 to 93dBm.

10Gbps solution. Yes, we are going to release such a solution within 2 months.

Kind Regards,
Danny

simog72
2017-03-23, 07:58 PM
Hi Danny
you piqued my curiosity, it seems nice device
I took a look at the FX-5500 specs

I see:
Tx Power 16dBm
single bandwidth selectable 1250MHz
modulation is 4QAM-32QAM
BSPK1 and BPSK2(is a coding ratio on data or a downshift in symbol rate?)
single traffic port
2000-5000Gbps

what modulation correspond the 93dBm system gain you declared?

thx